Input on 18x13 plan?

Hi all! Haven't been around these parts for a while! Nice to be back.

After a couple of years in a new house, I'm finally getting going on our new railroad.

My room is 18x13. I've only designed small layouts prior to this... so I really need some input to see if I'm WAY out to lunch here. Total newbie with room-sized layouts!

Look at my plan by clicking here...

I designed it with Atlas' freeware, so please forgive the size of the picture.

With few exceptions, all curves are 22" or 24".

I really like this plan, but I'm wondering if the yard is too big for the space it's in? Are things too cramped? Should I scrap it and start again?

Thanks for any input you can offer!


Tony

 

Tony,

Welcome to Trainboard!

I'm no planning guru. It looks like you have a nice run, but how do trains enter/exit the yard? Rather than too big, it looks too small to me. You can certainly shuffle cars around once they are in the yard, as there is an adequate switching lead with a run around. But, without an inbound/outbound track(s), how do you build/break trains?

 

Thanks Pete!

I do have an arrival/departure line, just above the main that passes through the yard. Is that not enough? (It's between the main, and the line that feeds to the turntable.)

Keep in mind that the OTHER main line (the one against the "north" wall) doesn't touch the yard. Perhaps it should?

Tony

 

Unless you are planning on always running by yourself, I think that the aisles are too narrow.

I would also be scared of having the track so close to the edge of the benchwork. A derail or someone bumping the layout at the wrong time will have your equipment going cliff diving.

It would make yard operations much simpler if your A/D track was on the other side of the yard by your switching lead.

 

Thanks for the feedback Tad.

The aisles are too narrow? I tried to stick with close-to 30" aisles for the longer sections, although I obviously shrunk that to 24" for the short north-south aisle. (Based the aisle widths on John Armstrongs "Track Planning for Realistic Operation") I don't know that I can widen them much without lowering my minimum curve radii? (Usually it'll be just me and my wife in the room. Yes, I have a wife that likes the hobby!)

As to the track close to the benchwork, I agree, especially near the yard and the area directly south of the yard. I don't know how forgiving/non-forgiving the Atlas software is for placing track, but I can certainly move it in a bit. (I'm thinking of carpeting the room to help a bit with any gear that flies off.)

With the yard, I'm not sure how far apart the tracks should be? Can this yard be compressed a little in order to make room at the edge?

Move the A/D track to the other side of the yard? Didn't think of that! If it'll simplify operations, I'll give it a whirl!

Great feedback! Thanks!


Tony

 

On the aisle width, try this. Take two chairs and set them up back to back the width of your aisles apart. Have your wife stand between them. Try to squeeze past her. Imagine she is switching and you are following your train around the main. Can you fit by?

If you can't get the track any further away from the edge, maybe you should consider installing a plexiglass fence on the edge of the layout to protect your equipment from possibly falling to the floor.

As for the track spacing, Armstrong gives some guidelines on page 81.

BTW, what scale are you modeling?

 

A door in the center of the long side - ouch...

With 22" and 24" curves, it's got to be HO, though those track centers are too tight. In the yard, where the tracks are straight, 2" is fine; on curves, well, it depends how long of equipment you're running.

The yard does look small to me. Then again, I don't know if a decent yard can be fitted in this space in HO - I usually plan in N. How long will your trains be? And don't connect the mainline along the wall to the yard. You want to create the illusion that the two lines are miles apart, at least operationally.

What's the locale and era? What are your special interests in railroading?

 

I saw that track--I think it's not long enough. I'd bend it around the curve to the east, and route the existing sidings off of it, or use crossovers.

 

Thanks for the input so far guys! It's appreciated!

Let me address some of the points that have been brought up.

Yes, I'm modelling HO. We want to have some switching, a yard and the ability to do continuous runs, hence the loops at both ends. It will be transition-era, so no really long equipment will be present. It's not based on a prototype, but is a fantasy-line based in the Alberta/BC area. Primary equipment will be CP, with a little CN and occasional visits by BCRail.

Tad: Thanks for the tip on the chairs! I set two chairs 26" apart, and we could get by each other, although I had to suck-in a bit.

If I can't back stuff away from the edge, I *had* been considering a low plexi fence.

Triplex: Yeah, there is nothing I can do about the location of the door. It simply can't go anywhere else. Sucks, I know.

Track Centers: I see that they are too tight on some of the curves. Again, I'm not sure if that's how it would truly lay out, or if the Atlas software is limited in how it works with the track. I'll work on that.

I did want to keep one of the two main lines seperate from the yard... so I don't know about moving the A/D track as was previously mentioned. Perhaps if I disconnet the near-main line, and move the A/D track to the "north" side of the yard, and connect it with the far main, leaving the "south" main totally seperate?

Boxcab: Chalk outlines, great idea. I'll give that a go. I know a stub-end yard will require a little effort to operate, but that's okay with me. I *am* wondering if I could use all that space for a better effect though, and not have a full yard.

Pete: Bend the A/D to the east? I'll take a crack at that.

Again, thanks for the feedback guys. Very valuable.

Cheers,


Tony

 

Okay... I've made a few changes.

Check the update here...

The north-south aisleway has been widened to 30". As a result, one of the lines that passed through town is now UNDER the other line. (This doesn't matter as it was going to be in a tunnel beneath the inner line anyway.)

I've fixed the spacing where there were track-center problems. At least the ones that jumped out at me.

Double-checked my curves, most are 22". Love to go bigger, but as I'm doing transition-era, I won't be running any huge rolling-stock. Guess Big-Boys are out! (There is one section of 18", but that's the non-decorated area behind the backdrop under the stairs. (SW corner)

Removed a couple of extranious sidings. Cleaned up the spacing on a few sidings as well.

THE YARD:
Proving to be difficult. At least with this software.

I tried moving the A/D track in the yard, but didn't like the result. I'd prefer to have the A/D track close to the southern main anyway. Tried extending the A/D around the eastern corner, but that really made that corner feel crowded with the siding there. I settled for moving the western-most crossover for the A/D track as west as possible to maximize the A/D track length.

Also, I replaced the #4 turnouts that enter the A/D track with #6s to minimize S-curve problems. (Almost all turnouts are #4s)

Added a crossover in the yard-storage area.

(Beginning to think a yard this size just isn't a good idea for this size layout...)

Any further thoughts folks? Is this an improvement??

Thanks!


Tony

 

Okay, made a few more changes, mostly on the west side.

Check it out!

Re-created the industrial area with a cleaner look... lowered the radius of the turn heading into the yard to 22", made for a nicer look. Added a passing track on the west-most main.

One problem I'm having. The two tracks coming through the wall near the gas-station... I can't think of how to disguise that. The western-most track isn't a problem... I can put a hill back there so the train disappears from sight. The dual track coming back out though... I'm at a bit of a loss.

 

The way to solve the track center problem is to not use radii 2" different. Try 22" and 24-1/4". If you're doing transition-era without big steam, your main constraint on radius is going to be passenger operation. I've read the absolute minimum for heavyweights is 22", and 24" for streamliners. Many passenger car models will require tinkering to run on curves this sharp. 26" would solve the problem, but your plan is already cramped. #4 turnouts are too tight; though the substitution radius is larger, the closure radius is only 15". Steam engines may have trouble. #5 turnouts are preferable for these curves.

Those yard tracks are still very short - especially a problem in a configuration like this where the yard is a switchback off its lead.

I see several errors, some possibly resulting from difficulties in lining things up in the program. There's a kink by the gas station, and another on the line through the backdrop from the coal mine. (Is that supposed to be an empties-in/loads-out connection? Those normally require two hidden tracks. One for empties to go one way, and the other for loads to go the other way.) That runaround on the yard lead, and the other one on the track connecting to the yard lead, are uselessly short and the track centers are impossibly tight. You can't fit HO runarounds in those short spaces. However, you should have a runaround for the lead.

Why can't you use another tunnel portal on the double track? I know, most layouts have too many tunnels, but in a place like this it's hard to use anything else. This is in the mountains, isn't it?

 

Another way to help hide the tracks going into the wall is a highway overpass. To save space maybe just half of one, like a 3D backdrop piece. Gas station would need to be moved a bit but it's an option.
I gotta tell ya I really like the hidden reverse thru the coal mine. That's a great way to make a functional element that is not obvious.

 

Thanks Balou... I kinda liked the hidden reverse track myself. Great idea on the high-way overpass... might have to go with that one.

Triplex, that double-track is actually in a prairie-type area. I plan to have the layout go from prairie/foothills over on the left, to mountainous over on the right.

I've actually ditched the yard now, and opened up the layout. I felt I was sacrificing scenic stuff for the sake of too much track. So, I'm reworking that area, and I've asked a couple more experienced members of my club for their thoughts.

Once I have the revised plan ready to go, I'll post it again to get a little more input from y'all.

Thanks again for the input!!!!


Tony

 

Here's what I see, this experience after some humbling experiences with my own layout.

If there is anything I learned, it's to put Operator accessibility First

In the lower corner, you are asking your trains to navigate a 4-6% grade, best I can see. You can knock that grade down to 2 or 3%, and get mroe use out of your locomotives, which I presume are either small (consolidation Down) or 4 axle diesel. Your train length will be gratly improved by this change, but doing it is going to be a bit of a change:

Re route the upper line so that it no longer crosses the lower line. Instantly, you have a smooth grade. Int aht depression, you cna put a small lake/pool, and use it for logs, that are being fed into the sawmill via the hill that goes over the tracks, that train at this point being in the tunnel. However, i could not reconcile your real pain int hat corner, the lack of a 2-3 foot reech. You also have two switches back that, which could be mondo trouble later. Especailly when you are building it.

Your yard: Here's how to do it: You already have a small problem near your turntable, there is not that many tracks there at all, and no room for a roundhouse, or any housing structure if you wanted one. Sink that rear track down about 6 inches, starting the grade all the way after the switch that involves the hidden reverse loop through the coal mine. You might be able to have a secontion on the level, but otherwsie, you should be able to sink that track 10 inches from that point to the lowest point in the hidden staging yard, perhaps under the north side of the layout.

This removes the line form behind the turntable, putting it under the layout level, and hence, giving you real room for both a roundhouse and a staging yard of Significant addequate size.


Maintaining the continous operation of the layout does seem to be a difficult issue, I feel your pain!

 

I was putting your layout together in ts, but that got tiring, so I finished it in paint. Its the same As what you have, but you will probably well notice the minor changes.

I could not get over that corner requireing a 5 foot reach. That corner would have never ever been fun for you, no matter what it looked like. I realized it was there merely so you could keep the continious loop.

I shortened the line, and then made ehte routs to both the coal mine and the lumber mill (Albiet, the coal mine is a LONG spur/practically a shortline hint hint, reason to have a couple shortline, home route, family power. ) That rout to the coal mine would also serve the town on the peninsula, while the Lower mainline serveices what appears to be a river dock. You could put in a higher station ont eh upper line, next to the coal mine, and then on the other side put a station on the lower level, and then span a small rural town between them that is the same town but with two names, one for the lower, one for the upper. The key is taht youc annot see the upper station and the lower station at the same time.

I noted one more thing...its kind of Nice to have some working space In the layout room. I think 6 feet is longer then my bed New stock can be serviced here, and then put onto the spur that exits via the sawmill.

 

Thanks for the input Benny! I like some of your ideas, and after I get my track-plan updated by my club members, I may just make use of some of your suggestions. I especially like how you buried the rear line under the turn-table like that. Quite cool.

As for the 5-foot-deep area.. a limitation of the space... I do plan to put a lift-out in that area so the rear tracks can be worked on. However, that are is most certainly going to be simplified and the turnouts removed from the rear area.

Sadly, the work-space in the room isn't an option. The room is 13-feet north-to-south, and I plan to use all of it for the layout. There WILL be a line leaving the loops on the west that heads under my staircase and to the adjoining room, where there will be a small fiddle/staging yard and workroom. I can't expand to the south where you placed a work-bench as the furnace is on the other side of that wall.

 

What height if your railroad running at? I feel you can use the benchwork along the south wall as a workbench, also alleviating your little problematic 5 foot reach, though with a liftout, that could alleviate the problems a bit.

I miss the point of the furnace being on the other side of the south wall.

I have to redesign my layout right now, i assure you, it's a fun challenge!!!

 

Hi gang... resurecting my old thread from the dead.

I've been avoiding doing design, as I've been frustrated by this particular layout plan. I think I'm trying for too much in the space I have.

I've come to the conclusion that these great big loops at either end are what is causing me the most trouble.

The Bg Issues:

A) Going under the stairs, plus comprimising my 22" minimum in that location.

B) The five-foot reach on the lower right corner. Even with a lift-out in the scenic area, it's gonna be a pain in the rump, as others have pointed out.


Generally, the loops just consume way too much room. So, I'm rethinking my plan. (Got the spark again after my local annual railway show.)

Looking for input and/or ideas. Please help a rookie track-planner??

I want to use as much of the space as possible. It's what the room is for. However, if I want continuous runs available, I have to face that it may be necessary to do a lift-out bridge or gate by the door.

I'd like to try to get up to a 24" minimum... and the "bulb" section is not necessary.

So... here's what I'm looking for:

</font>

• 18x13 room around-the-walls layout with one gate/bridge for access, if required.</font>
• HO Scale - Code 83 - 24" minimum</font>
• 30" aisle minimum</font>
• Continual running w/ some switching.</font>
• No yard, but an engine facility (possibly with smaller turntable)</font>
• RIP track(s)</font>
• Hidden staging below the main deck.</font>
• Still modelling a freelance area based on the BC interior. Prairie to mountain-valley.</font>
• Transition time-period.</font>
• Coal, fruit/canning & brewery industries. (Had lumber as well, but I think one industry needs to go. Each "industry" should have a pick-up and drop-off point.)</font>
• Full DCC with signaling and perhaps transponding just for fun. </font>
• Two passenger locations. (One good size town, one "suggestion" of a town.)</font>
• Interchange track so "visitor" road-names have a way onto the layout</font>

So... can anyone offer thoughts and/or directions to a basic track-plan I can work from?

Cheers!

[ March 01, 2006, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: CanadianKnight ]