Pennsy electrified operations in N scale?

I wish I had all the answers regarding the above subject, but I don’t… yet.

I plan to share this on several forums. After musing aloud about future PRR layout plans, Jerry Britton (of Keystone Crossings fame) suggested I consider the stretch of the PRR’s Northern Central branch between Wago Jct and York, PA. This is a double-tracked line with decent scenery and plenty of freight and passenger ops, along with online switching opportunities.

Anyway, this line connected at York Haven with the PRR Atglen & Susquehanna Low Grade Line from Shock’s Mills, heading north together as the York Haven line to Enola. From York Haven north the line is under catenary. This is a mixed blessing, being that I’ve always been fascinated by PRR electric ops.

Let’s talk a little about what we can do in N scale in order to replicate PRR electrified operations. Unfortunately, there’s not much out there off-the-shelf, or even easy kitbashes.

Locomotives:

GG-1: I have one of these by Arnold/Rivarossi. It’s nicely detailed but the paint job is poor and it doesn’t run well. Also has oversized flanges and isn’t DCC. Then there’s brass.

P5a/P5a modified: Nothing in N scale comes close. I wonder if at least the boxcab version could be built via some European or Japanese chassis. The body would be a tough scratchbuild. Again, flange depth and DCC-compatibility are potential issues.

FF2: The Kato/Tomix JNR EF-15 is kind of close, although its windows look more like the P5a body. This would make a decent “foobie.” I don’t know about flange depth or DCC options.

E44: Nope. Nothing close that I know of. The sharp angles on the body at least make scratchbuilding a somewhat less daunting endeavor.

Experimentals: A number of experimental electrics ran on the PRR. The welded bodies on some make kitbashing/scratchbuilding a little less scary.

Catenary:

Unlike HO, nobody offers pre-built PRR catenary poles in N, and none of the commercial N scale catenary poles look anything like the distinctive PRR poles. Fortunately, the PRR used relatively simple steel shapes (as opposed to the intricate lattice work of the NH catenary bridges). This gives us the option of plastic or brass beam stock. Now, I’ve scratched my head over the long insulators on PRR catenary poles, but I think the ones that come with the Kato high-tension transmission towers might work. Each kit comes with 18. If you make a mold with them and cast more, you should be OK (as long as you don’t turn around and sell them!). The other thing that would need to be cast would be the pyramid-shaped caps on top of the catenary poles.

Trolley wire can come from commercial sources (Vollmer, Kato, etc.). For me, though, I think I’d just use a single strand of green spandex thread so that I could reach underneath to deal with any problems. Rigid catenary would be a challenge in the event of a derailment given the short clearance in N. Of course, rigid catenary is necessary if you plan to energize it.

Lets hear some ideas from you PRR N-scalers (or any other scale who has had to deal with these issues)!

 

Man, I agree with Jerry.

However, take a look at what these folks are doing, http://www.teamsavage.com/ncat/ncat.html. They might help you with ideas, supplies, and camaraderie.....OK, maybe a little sympathy, also. :angel:

 

Of course, the actual electric operations would be an "extra," in that the main focus of my layout would be the non-electrified Northern Central.

 

[EDIT] Sunset Models imported a DD-1 set a number of years ago. Not bad! Small flanges. A little rough running--noisy--but, again, not bad on my test loop. No idea if the catenary actually works. No idea if it's even a Pennsy prototype. One of the etailers got his hands on a bunch, and sold them off reasonably. Heavy little suckers with big can motors. Made in Korea. Looks like a decoder will fit easily.

This is one of my future projects. I haven't disassembled it to see if the catenary is wired--it's a single-pole design. But it is a good-looking, well-detailed model.

 

I should mention that nothing other than the model, and a bag of small screws, came in the box--no documentation--nuttin'!

 

I guess this was actually 3rd rail pickup! Although they may have used a catenary pickup in some of the yards?

 

This is one thing that i always wanted to start a thread for, but i never started a thread.... and here is my biggest complaint!

Why can't they make electric n scale locos???

There i said it. So that is now why i play with my scale 3 rail Loco's... sure they are large but they have all sorts of electric loco's.... Several GG-1's, P5's and so forth...

My N Scale wish list needs electric loco's and more Baldwins... one of these days..

 

e,

Pete, the DD1's were 3rd rail powered (At least the ones I'm familiar with). The Long Island RR and its parent company Pennsy used them on the electricifed areas around NYC

 

Hi Dave,
Kato's Japanese electrics have no issues with atlas Code 55 track (so far, I've only seen a few). Older Tomix stuff seems to have deeper, European type flanges. Maybe lookout for some of the Microace boxcab electrics, they have fine flanges & run well, and while Japanese, the prototypes were made by Baldwin/Westinghouse in the US during the 20s and 30s.

-Cody

 

This sounds daunting.

 

Oh, heck. If I wanted the sum total of my modeling skill to be opening a box and having finished models fall out, I'd be in HO!!!

 

After seeing Chris Comport's HO scale PRR Middle Division layout (featuring the Denholm Coal Warf and Lewistown) I find my mind drifting back toward doing the Middle Division and not any electrified portion. I'm so confused!!! There are so many neat sections of the Pennsy from which to choose.

Chris Comport's layout is on display at the RR Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg. It's essentially a railfan-type layout (no staging) with four trains drilling around the main. Ample switching is possible in his renditions of Lewistown and Mifflin. That raises an interesting idea.

Can one build a layout where the main operation is the local freight and the mainline trains are essentially moving scenery? Would such a layout be satisfying?

 

more DD1 info

Yes, the DD1 locos picked up DC power from a 3rd rail. A book I read said that they had what looked like a tiny pantograph on the roof to allow them to pick up power from above in some sections (probably in a yard) where there was a problem getting power from a 3rd rail, but I don't know how widely this was actually used.

The DD1 was never used West of "Manhattan Transfer" (a little East of Newark NJ, this was the transfer point between Electric and Steam power, when Penn Station opened in 1910), because the Pennsy did not run DC-powered 3rd rail further West than that. To expand its electric coverage South and West, the Pennsy chose AC power at 11,000 volts, delivered via overhead catenary. The GG1 was the Pennsy's most famous AC electric, but there were others.

The DD1 locos were also used to go East of Penn Station for the LIRR, and they served at least as far East as Jamaica Station, and supposedly were used into the 1950s in that role.

The last DD1 was used to power the catenary repair maintenance train in the tunnels leading to Penn Station - using the DD1 allowed the power to the overhead catenary to be turned off. This last usage of a single DD1 usage continued until 1970.

I would like credit the book "Rails Under The Mighty Hudson" by Brian J. Cudahy for this information. While it's only 79 pages, it is chock full of great information on the building of the Pennsy and PATH tubes under the Hudson River, it has pictures of several types of Pennsy electric locos, and even has a picture of what the innards of a real DD1 looked like (with the outer body shell removed). It also explains some of the logic behind the Pennsy's decision to use AC power to extend West and South of Manhattan Transfer.

I would think that a DD1 would be a really fun model to watch run, with all the siderod action.

 

Thanks for all the info! Dr. Cudahy was a good friend of mine back in the early 70s. Besides being a subway fan and model railroader, he was a philosophy professor at Boston College when I was the PR flack there.

 

I've wondered sometimes what it would take to model a DD1. A pair of some sort of inside-cylinder (thus presumably British) 4-4-0s could supply mechanisms. Is there some such model that matches the DD1's wheel size and spacing? (Remember the difference between US and UK N.)

 

The siderods on the model are pretty simple. I haven't opened one up yet, as it's about 95th on the priority list. There are big can motors in there for N scale. I can probably squeeze a decoder in between the motor and the gear tower of one unit, which would control the two motors after some modifications to isolate the motors.

These do have vestigial catenaries. Good for yard work, I guess. They are not operational, as far as I can tell.