Atlas & Bachmann 4-4-0 Turning Radii

Maureen Feb 2, 2014

  1. Maureen

    Maureen TrainBoard Member

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    I just saw the new Atlas American at the Amherst show the other week. Was delighted to see one that can ride on code 55!

    Can anyone comment if it can handle as tight a minimum radius as the old Bachmann one can?

    We have a Bachmann that runs quite well - we have 6" radius curves in out-of-sight places, and some 7.5" minimum out in view. 4-4-0's are about the biggest engines we run, so the tight curves work well for us.
     
  2. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    I just ran upstairs and tried mine on the Kato UNITRAM street trackage. Those curves are something on the order of eight and seven inches, or seven and six inches. I ran it at thirty SMPH. It actually ran on the outer curve, but the pilot trucks kept derailing in forward. It did run without any derailing through the outer curve in reverse. On the inner curve, in both directions, the drivers climbed the rails causing it to derail. The pilots derailed in forward, only.

    I would state 'no'. It will not take as tight a curve as the Bachpersonn. Keep in mind that the UNITRAM is code eighty, or something close.
     
  3. Maureen

    Maureen TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks for testing that out, that's very helpful info.

    Grr, Atlas did it again — I'm still bitter that they made a Shay that couldn't make curves as tight as the prototype could!
     
  4. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    The Atlas Shay will take a nine inch, but it don't like it . It will not go around those UNITRAM curves. Street running was something for which the railroads used geared power, as it frequently operated at very slow speeds. The pulling power of that thing does not match the prototype, either, as those things also operated on some pretty nasty grades. I have three and am somewhat less than delighted with them. The first one that I bought actually operated very well AND at walking speed . As I was taking off the body to letter it for my non-historic railroad, one of the trucks slipped out. I learned a bitter lesson there. It seems that the gears are matched at the factory to a close tolerance, and if you do not replace the trucks in the exact position where they were when they left the factory, the result is disaster. The thing would never run properly after that. I had another one that had to go back to Atlas twice. Make no mistake about it, Atlas was good about fixing the problem. When it still did not operate properly after the first return, I sent an e-Mail to Atlas protesting my having to pay for another shipping to New Jersey. They sent a UPS man to pick it up at their expense. They DID fix the problem and they DID return it to me promptly. Still, when I try to run these things at twenty SMPH or less (the prototype usually ran at speeds between ten and twenty MPH, twenty five was about the tops that most of these could do), they cog and/or stall. The stalling even occurs on freshly erased straight and level track.

    Funny thing, I went upstairs and tried the Atlas mogul on the UNITRAM track. It WILL operate on both the inner and outer curves without derailing and stalling, at least at thirty SMPH. These things do have contact problems. They pick up only on one of the tender trucks, thus they are prone to stalling at speeds less than forty SMPH, even on straight and level. MT is supposed to issue some live archbar trucks. This would allow you to make a boxcar or baggage car live and couple it permanently to the mogul. This would address contact problems and allow you to operate it reliably at speeds between twenty and thirty SMPH.

    I do not know what period in the nineteenth century that you model. The first moguls appeared in 1863. Both the Atlas models and the B-mann are 1870s power. They look close enough to Civil War era power that you can get away with using them. I have small nineteenth century pike. I do not stick too close to prototype and era on it. I operate both the Atlas offerings, the B-mann eight wheeler, the MDC/Athearn mogul and MDC/Athearn consolidated. The latter are 1880s power. I also operate many MT, Athearn and MDC thirty four foot cars. Many of these are actually from the 1900-1930 era, but I use them. Small locomotives with simple wheel arrangements, wood rolling stock, truss rods and archbar trucks all convey an image of nineteenth century railroading. I have a horse drawn Wells Fargo Waggon. I had to chase down a nineteenth century Wells Fargo logo for it. My Fire Department is probably a bit large for the town on the pike, but again, a horse drawn pumper shouts "NINETEENTH CENTURY!!!". That is what I want the pike to do. In addition, GF likes the nineteenth century trains.

    I suspect that the only other power of that era that anyone could manufacture in N would be the Winans 0-8-0s that the B&O operated on Sand Patch and in other mountainous areas. You would be hard put to fit a motor into the extremely small tender of a 4-2-0. Getting one into the 0-4-0Ts or 0-6-0Ts of the era would be out of the question. In addition, you would have the electrical contact problems with the tank engines. I suppose that there would be the possibility of powering a boxcar of that era and having it push the 4-2-0 or the tank engine. There is a brass set that has either box or stock cars and a late 1860s mogul. One of the box type cars is powered and pushes the mogul. The set is rare, costly and from what I understand does not run well.

    I find that Miranda's Maxim as Explained by ke applies DOUBLE for N scale nineteenth century modelling. Miranda's Maxim as Explained by ke reads: "The poor performance of many N scale steam locomotives is almost always attributable to poor electrical contact."

    I await the arrival of the live MT archbar trucks. I refuse to use the live Bettendorfs, that are available from other manufacturers, on a nineteenth century car. When they do show up, I will make some live cars and couple them permanently to the Atlas mogul. The Atlas mogul is a good runner at slower speeds and pulls well for its size, WHEN it has electrical contact. Funny thing about the Atlas eight wheeler is that it runs herky-jerky at speeds in excess of forty SMPH, but runs fairly smoothly at speeds of thirty-five SMPH or less. The B-mann eight wheeler, when well broken in, is not a bad puller or runner, considering what it is. It does have a tendency to tail; even well broken in later versions do this. Later versions of this (the last cardboard box issues and the plastic box issues), when well broken in, will hold a steady twenty five SMPH. Earlier versions of this varied wildly in performance. GF has one that will pull fifteen nineteenth century cars up a one per cent grade at twenty five SMPH. I doubt that the prototype could do that. I have some from the same era that will cog at anything less than a fast wheel spin. I can not tell the speed at which they run as they can not even get out of their own way.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2014
  5. Maureen

    Maureen TrainBoard Member

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    Good to know on the Atlas Mogul.

    We're actually doing a fantasy railroad — the early steam age of Middle Earth, so we have a lot of leeway in selecting what we want to run!

    The GHL&G, Gray Havens, Lorien & Gondor Rail Road, uses American image equipment. The Old Forest Railway uses British image. And the Ered Line uses German.
     
  6. k-59

    k-59 TrainBoard Member

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    I remember having the idea for a Middle Earth railway after I first read LotR. I am glad to see someone actually do it.
     
  7. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    I edited and added some stuff since you read my reply. I got timed out, then it would not log me back in on IE, so I had to switch to GC.

    It appears that you and I are on parallel tracks. If that is the case, have you considered the Athearn/MDC offerings? They are probably the best operating small steam locomotives, out-of-the-box, in N scale. They require NO customer supplied Quality Control. The Athearns are copies of the MDC. They have MTs. The Athearn/MDCs also have blinded drivers which allows them to operate on sharp curves. Both of the Athearn/MDC steam locomotives will operate on the UNITRAM .
     
  8. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    Do you have to triple or quadruple head to get over Caradhras???
     
  9. Maureen

    Maureen TrainBoard Member

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    Ooh, the Athearn Mogul looks like it will work great, and low profile wheels, yay!

    The haul up to the Goblin Gate Tunnel on Caradhras does hit about 3.75%, but won't need to double up. Keeping strictly to short equipment and short total train length, our engines have been able to handle that on the test track. (The actual bench and trackwork is still under construction)
     
  10. furrbrain

    furrbrain TrainBoard Member

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    That sounds fascinating! Pictures yet?

    ----------------------------------------------
    Mike Grant
    It's never too late to have a happy childhood!!
    ----------------------------------------------
    http://myhealthyway.net
     
  11. 4-4-0

    4-4-0 TrainBoard Member

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    on my layout I have two radius one curve ca. 200mm on this curve run
    Bachmann 4-4-0
    Athearn 2-6-0
    Minitrix 4-6-2
    Bachmann 2-8-0 Spectrum old run
    and of course most of the old German N-Steamers T3 , BR89, BR24 etc.
     
  12. randgust

    randgust TrainBoard Member

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    My Atlas 4-4-0 will barely, and sometimes not always consistently, do a 9 3/4. It really doesn't like the 8" curves on the Hickory Valley at all. The Bachmann handled it, but it derailed on every switch I had and stalled, too.

    Now, I've made a lot of tuning adjustments to the Atlas including putting a bit of weight over the first axle of the lead truck, carving a hair off the inside of the cylinders, putting a custom cast weight in the cab and putting an cast weight (extension) on the tender deck as an extended coal load, and hard-wired the locomotive to the tender. It's much better than it was before, very reliable at low speed now. No longer derails on 9 3/4 much worse than anything else. I added the weight primarily to get the rear of the cab to 'sit down' over the rear axle for balance and to improve electrical pickup of the tender, significant improvement there. If you study the physics of that locomotive, the nose-heavy tip not only decreases tractive effort on the rear axle, but it jacks up the tender front end slightly, decreasing electrical pickup too. While that open cab looks nice, it's quite a design flaw.

    My Atlas Shay was a first-run, good runner, will handle 8" OK although all I do is creep it around it.

    And remember, it's only a 60-ton Shay. Half the weight of say, a typical GP7 in the prototype. While they didn't slip on starting and had much better low-speed torque than conventional steam, they didn't repeal gravity and pull more than they could grip (say 25% of their weight with sand). And most logging railroads ran logs downhill to the mill, so some of the trains you'll see have that little secret going for them. It's not too bad.... could be better. And yes, there is a secret to the trucks. Remember that the gears AND the driveshaft move the wheels, if the trucks drop out you have to make sure you reinstall them so that the driveshaft is still freewheeling (not in tension between the trucks) or she'll shed shafts like there's no tomorrow or hang up clicking. One gear tooth off on either truck and you have it binding situation.

    My uncontested minimum-radius curve champ mechanism is the Atlas 2-6-0. I have three of them, all of them (stock, modified, and one is an 0-6-4) handle the 8" curves fine. The modified one with the gearhead is silky-smooth mostly due to the torque from the gearhead so it can creep around an absurdly tight curve without binding. That's also the one that I built a tender for using Kato caboose trucks with 8x8 electrical pickup. But with hotwiring around the drawbar wire problem and a little more pickup weight, the stock 2-6-0 does just fine too, but I also added more weight to the tender on that one as well. There's a lot you can do to improve electrical pickup, but the first thing is that the split-frame wire-spring drawbar on theither the 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 is NOT THAT GREAT as the contact point is miniscule, it arcs, sparks, and corrodes, and every tiny movement of the locomotive and tender moves it around. You THINK it is the contact problem wheel-to-rail, but when you jostle the tender you're also jostling that drawbar contact, and away she goes and you blame the wrong thing. Until you hotwire the tenders into the frame as an experiment you don't realize just how bad it is.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 5, 2014
  13. Maureen

    Maureen TrainBoard Member

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    No pictures yet, but we're doing another burst of modelling this month. After many years of planning, testing, structure building, etc. the goal is to get some trains running this year!

    Actually, that was our hope for last year too, but US Federal sequestration budget cuts hit Middle Earth railroading pretty hard. Fortunately, our household employment, and hobby budget, is more secure this year. Before layoffs hit the household, we had set-up a blog, anticipating that we would soon be photo-op ready. The plan is to start posting photos once trains are running. It's a nice incentive for us to keep pushing ^,^

    Most of the roadbed is in place on the Grey Havens and Hobbiton module which will work for stand-alone operations with a hidden loop until later work expands to Bree, Rivendell, and beyond. Today's a snow day, and I'll be working on some more buildings for Grey Havens harbour. These are warehouses that go right up against the backdrop, and I want to have these in place to get the exact placement of the track the runs alongside them down the quay.

    There's nothing posted on it yet, but we have staked claim to http://ironwarg.com/

    Stay tuned!
     
  14. Maureen

    Maureen TrainBoard Member

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    Just ordered a pair of the Athearn Moguls at a really good price on Amazon. It will be easy enough to raise the coal bunker to make room for a chip too ^,^
     
  15. brokemoto

    brokemoto TrainBoard Member

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    You have almost everything covered with the North American and two Europeans. South and Central America used mostly US equipment; Africa mostly European. The only thing that you are missing is Asiatic. If you ever get that far, a thought:

    I am assuming that on your version of Middle Earth, the Quendi successfully dared the Ban of the Valar, so those who at first did not leave Middle Earth eventually did leave. If the Valar were in a better mood, could it be that they allowed Numenor to rise once more from the ocean? If so, you could build a module to simulate Numenor and run the Asiatic equipment on it. The relatively small size of the island would lend itself well to tank locomotives. (At least I seem to recall that it was relatively small--I could be mistaken)

    There are various Asian manufacturers that sell some nicely running Asiatic prototype tank locomotives. There is one manufacturer who sells a very nice, small 0-6-2T that I believe to be based on a Korean prototype. You could do car ferries from the Mainland to Numenor, as well. I am assuming that the era that you have chosen would preclude electric operation, something else to which Numenor would lend itself.

    On the decoder and sound for the Athearns, check out Mark Watson's posts on the subject. He did not have to raise the coal load.
     
  16. Maureen

    Maureen TrainBoard Member

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    We do have the Asiatic accounted for, but not appearing by rail on the layout — The Rhûn Steamship Company has a warehouse at Laketown! The River Running disappears into the backdrop though, long before reaching the Sea of Rhûn.

    I've also sketched out separate combo test-track and switching puzzle that if we get around to scenicking, will be done as Rhûn.

    Gondor will have the first electric power and trolleys.
     
  17. kmcsjr

    kmcsjr TrainBoard Member

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    That is the COOLEST train thing I've ever heard. You wil have to pulll mining cars through Moria. My oldest goes to school in cambridge. You have to post pics of middle earth rails
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 7, 2014
  18. Maureen

    Maureen TrainBoard Member

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    Well, the mines in Moria were tapped out during the Third Age. But now at the dawn of the Fifth Age, it's economically viable to cull through the ancient tailings to get mithril. We'll have a stone quarry and iron mine at the edge of the Iron Hills, and a coal mine at Minas Morgul (the fortress has been rebuilt as a tourist destination).
     
  19. kmcsjr

    kmcsjr TrainBoard Member

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    How much space do you have?
     
  20. Maureen

    Maureen TrainBoard Member

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    With selected and compressed scenes, we're managing to put a 1,000 mile map into a 8' x 11' L! 2' wide give or take, stretching across the tops of bookcases in the parlour. The foreground track GHL&G covers Grey Havens, Hobbiton, Bree, Moria, Lorien, and Gondor, and we'll likely put a hole in the wall to extend out to a little space in the front hallway for the docks at South Ithilien, and also a subway/elevated trolley line between Gondor/South Ithilien. The background track along most of the long leg of the L is the Old Forest Ry from the upper hills of Hobbiton to Rivendell, Mirkwood, and Laketown. Junction there with the Ered Line along most of the short leg of the L connecting the Iron Hills and Minas Morgul. Minas Morgul being right next to Gondor with the Anduin River slicing between them.

    The major trick to accomplish this is that although we're modelling a continent, all the trains are essentially composed and operated like short locals, although the GH&LG is divided into 2 freight divisions with a tiny staging yard in Bree, 1 track each for Eastbound and Westbound, and a Caboose and Repair track. The mountains for Minas Morgul and Caradhras help for scene divides, and hidden oval helixes to provide running time and altitude changes. With the scenery and keeping trains to a strict minimum (16" length on the GHL&G, 12" on the Old Forest and Ered), we can prevent trains from having engine and caboose in two different scenes at once. A diagonal backdrop splits Grey Havens and Hobbiton, with a hidden track rising up from Grey Havens behind the Weather Hills to Rivendell to provide a junction with the Old Forest Ry.

    The tiny equipment of early steam, plus British and German sizing, helps a lot. Freight cars range from 22' to 32' long, and some 36' on the GHL&G. Passenger cars are 32' and 36', and even some big 45' Bachmann ones on the GHL&G only for the Lorien Express =^,^=

    Those short lengths help with mechanical and visual use of tight curves, and with compressing the scenes. This equipment all has short heights too, so we could cut vertical clearances down to help make the grade on cross-overs and junctions between the different roads. Very short easements, both horizontally and vertically also work well with the tiny equipment. While we haven't laid actual track on the layout yet, we did extensive testing before committing to the design.
     

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