I noticed that the wiring for a DCC layout is quite a bit different if one is to consider Block Occupancy and or Signals. I want to make sure I take this technology in to account during my wiring plans. How do these products work together. Does anyone have suggestions on how one might get the SE8C to work with Kato turnouts. Capacitor Discharge, I do not know? If anyone has any experience with these Digitrax products, I would be interested if you could please share your thoughts, pitfalls experienced, or suggestions you may be willing to offer.
Let me first say, that while I am incorporating both of these boards into my layout, I actually don't have possesion of them yet. I have ordered an SE8c board, which hasn't arrived yet, and am wiring for the BDL 168. After searching through the manual, I believe you *cannot* use the SE8c with Kato turnouts, only slow motion machines such as Tortoises. I have dropped feeders from my track and wired the black wire (which actually may be opposite of what Digitrax uses) as blocks. I ran a 12 gauge bus from a common location below the layout (where a terminal strip is mounted) and then ran it up to the feeders for all points in that block. Sometimes it would simply be one or two feeders (such as at a turnout). The red wire, in my case, is wired common to all the feeders. Both the red and the black wire are being fed from a PM42. The red going to that common mentioned earlier, the black going to the terminal strip where the BDL 168 will eventually go. I'm not sure how the two work together, as I am planning on using a computer for sending out signaling commands to the SE8c based on block occupancy messages from the BDL 168. I realize the SE8c has block occupancy inputs, but I think I read somewhere that someone used those for positive turnout position indication instead.
Chris Thanks for your input. I actually have both boards. I have not opened them at this time, however I have downloaded tha manuals. I understand the BLD168, but how the two work in tandem still escapes me. Digitrax sent the following reply to my email this morning. Digitrax Email Message The two do not really "work together" but perform two separate and distinct functions. BDL168 provides track detection and sends messages re occupancy to the computer. Of course a computer interface such as the MS100 will be needed. SE8C is designed to receive messages from the computer to light signals a certain way and/or throw switches depending on how you have your software programmed. SE8C will ONLY activate Tortoise type switch machines and no other So I think that may be right, but there has to be a way to wire in the Kato Turnout. I also have a DS64 which I want to investigate to see if I can incorporate that somehow
I have both the SE8c and the BDL168 on my personal layout and I am in the process of installing them on the club layout. In other words, I have a lot of experience with them. First, the SE8c can only output directly to stall motor types of switch machines (Tortoise, etc). I am sure that someone could come up with an interface that would provide for a capacitor discharge system but it is not part of the SE8c. As Digitrax indicated, the SE8c and the BDL168 are separate items that do not directly control each other. You must have a computer running some type of software (RR & Co, Winlok, JMRI, KAM, etc) that actually takes inputs from the BDL168 occupancy detector, SE8c switch position and connected BD-4 occupancy information, DS54 or DS64 switch position and then sends out commands to the SE8c to tell it which signals to turn to what color or position. In wiring the layout, you must provide blocks. This requires routing wires (12-14 AWG recommended) from the block detectors (BDL168 or BD4) to each block. This requires a lot of large wire. You will also have to run wiring out from the SE8c to all of your signals. Where DCC saves a lot of copper, signaling eats it all up again and more. I hope I covered your questions. If not, ask again and I will try to do better. David
David Thank You for your reply. Just got to come up with that capacitor discharge circuit and I will be okay I guess. Quick question on page 21 of the SE8C manual a witing diagram for the SE8C shows a block detector with a black wire going to the -ve sensor return post A on the SE8C and a Red wire going to the DS01 post 5. Where on the BDL168 do these wire originate from, would you know? [ March 16, 2006, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: okane ]
Those wires would not connect to a BDL168, but to a BD4. The BDL168 transmits occupancy information via Loconet messages. The SE8C detection inputs take detection logic levels directly (from a BD1 or BD4) and generate the appropriate loconet messages. The computer sorts through the occupancy messages, turnout positions, etc, determines what signals to show what aspects and generates the appropriate loconet messages out to the SE8C. It's kinda like when you touch something hot and pull your hand away, the translation from "hot" to "move your hand" requires action on the part of your brain...No brain, no move hand (although I haven't experienced that personally, mind you). The BD4/SE8C combination duplicates what the BDL168 does as far as detection reporting to Loconet. It does NOT generate signal control messages to the SE8C (those come from the computer). You could use a BDL168 to connect to the SE8C by using the LED outputs, but that would take a little interface engineering.
Chris, David Do either of you use the signals that Digitrax are promoting and if you do how did you dress the PC boards above the layout to make them look like signal towers.
I don't use the Digitrax signal masts. I am using Sunrise Enterprises and Tomar signals. Some additional information, the BD4/SE8c is a very cost effective method of adding detection blocks in groups of 4. Each SE8c board supports 8 separate detection blocks with the addition of 2 BD4 boards. One nice thing about the BD4 boards when compared to the BDL168 is you can distribute the boards closer to blocks you want detection on. Not only are the BD4 boards cheaper per block but you also save money on wiring. David David
I also have a BDL168, and will be installing the se8c soon. You can use the route capabilities of the dt400 throttle to control signal aspects as if they were turnouts in a cascade. Each signal head receives its own address, with a thrown and closed position. You can control almost any situation, as these cascaded routes can contain routes within, giving a possible 49 (7 turnouts per route, 7 routes to a cascade...I think) displayed aspects On a less informed note, has anyone had a bdl168 short out? Mine puffed out all of the sudden. Any possible advice, or should I send it to digitrax?
p.s., using the route control in the throttle is the casual way to operate and still have signals happening without the computer interface. In essence, it is manual control, but instantaneous after programing the routes into the throttle.
I'm installing about the same set up, except I've replaced the "black" bus wire with a colored wire for each Detection Section. Color coding has made it pretty easy to determine which detection section is which while wiring.
Here's my setup, still very much a work-in-progress. I have everything mounted on a plexiglass panel for now. As far as tips: 1. If you are doing transponding, notice the ribbon cable length...I should have probably rotated the cards 90 deg so that the ribbon cable had more slack. It still reaches as it is, but barely. And it doesn't look very neat. I've seen installations with the RX4's where it appeared they were much longer. Not sure if that is something new with Digitrax or if you can special order them longer or what. With all the requirements for spacing of the detectors it's a little limiting. 2. I highly recommend that you diagram your layout schematically to help plan out your detection blocks, transponding zones, and signalling. Here's a sample of mine: You can see in the first diagram I've started documenting blocks and showing gaps with orange lines. I just did mine in MS paint, but my layout is very small. If you have a larger pike you might want to use something like Panel Pro to draw the basic lines in (with the obvious benefit of having your virtual panel drawn if you implement dispatching or otherwise use Panel Pro at some point) 3. I haven't done anything with my SE8C yet. I have purchased a bunch of the Digitrax signal masts just to use in the interim until I can get others built or purchased. I don't plan on doing anything elaborate with them...maybe paint them silver and put a ladder and styrene hoods on them or something.
Hi Doug, My SE8c arrives tomorrow. I'll start with driving the Torti, with signaling to follow. Could you please re-post your photos? For some reason they aren't accessible anymore. I'm looking for ideas & suggestions on how to develop a structured wiring panel. FYI, I have ~10 turnouts and will have ~16 blocks eventually. Thanks! - Neil
One BDL16 will support 16 blocks, but the SE8c will only support 8 turnout machines. I have my crossovers wired to be trown by one tortoise, you just use the remote mount kit to throw two turnouts from one machine. The SE8c only sends enough voltage to throw one machine from each of it's outputs. So if I want to throw a crossover set of turnouts, I just hit "switch 1" for example. I would definitely recommend this practice (and am surprised I don't see it mentioned more often) as you don't need independent control of each turnout in a crossover... Unless you are engineering collisions! The same practice could also be applied short sidings that you know will always have their turnouts operated in tandem. Hope this help!
dont connect the BL168's LED to the SE8c sensors. I tried that and had a big loconet shutdown. Couldnt get the DCs200 to go on line and had 4 beeps. I disconnected them and it worked fine. I found the sensors are for other occupancy methods (BD1, optic, or other makers of non loconet componets) The BDL168 supplies all the detection needed for JMRI to work with the SE8c. I found it best to get BDL168,s working good first then incoperate the SE8c. And I found having LED's showing occupancy on the sub panels on the layout helped me debug my mistakes. I have four BDL168's and 2 SE8c on the layoutso far and plan to install 3 more SE8c to the layout.
Here is something Digitrax wont tell you. Using the power supply sugested by digitrax, will operate only one tortoise. I found two ways to remedy this. Use the aux switches on the bottom of the tortoise to make your own double throw switch for the second switch fed from another power source, or if more than two are used.I used an old powerpack with 12v-3 amps constant supply Yes I said two... I have done this second method for a year and it works fine. The second method is to use a 12v two amp or higher power supply for the SE8c, this has been throwing two ganged tortoise machines on my layout. The instructions tell you to use at least the PS14 (?), and it doesnt have the ampacity to move more than one switch, and I used a three amps supply and it worked fine. Now digitrax will tell you only one tortoise because the board doesnt have the capacity, I felt they were tring to sell more switch motor drivers. I wouldnt try more than two....a tortoise has a stall amp draw of about 0.40 amps and more than the two may overload the board.
