For those that have built "double decked" layouts, what is the minimum vertical height (HO Scale) between the upper/lower levels. I have searched a couple of forumns and did not come up w/ a discussion on this issue. Probably could have searched a little more. Anyway, in doing some preliminary sketches for my layout, I have found I have the opportunity and space to do two areas of double decking. One will be a double-decked staging area, the other will be a branch line run, double-decked below the coal mine run. My concern is the necessary, CLEAR dimension in height after fascia board, sub-roadbed and all that good stuff. Also, I would imagine the "deeper" the lower portion the higher it was to be to facilitate hand manipulation, etc in reaching towards the back of the lower area. Just curious to hear what experiences there are out there. Also, any other pitfalls in double decking. BTW: I read the Helix-Spreadsheet discussion. Although I will not need a helix to transition between levels, it was an excellent discussion and spreadsheet. Thanks!
25 years ago I had a double deck layout. Main yard about at 41'', second deck with branch line station above at 59''. The main yard was nearly 2 ' deep, branch line station (my station Naumburg) only 1'. Framing for Naumburg is about 3'' thick. At 30'' was a big staging yard. This is a similar following layout during construction: Wolfgang
I've never built one but from looking at them I've never seen one with enough separation to make it visually appealing. I just can't forget about the other tracks right below or above that are supposed to be miles away. I'd do some mock ups if I were you and see what view makes it tolerable to your eyes. The staging should be no problem to mock up, just make the test area as wide as your plan and the same height off the floor then see how much separation it takes for you to reach in and do something at the back.....dave
Although my double deck layout is in N scale, I figured out the height that I liked for both decks and went from there. Do some mock ups to see where your "sweet spot" is for height. I'm 5'11" so my layout came to 42" to the rail on the lower level and 62" to the rail on the upper level, or 20" between tracks. Take away the upper level's roadbed/subroadbed, supporting structure and facia, and I have a visible separation of 16". On a side note, when I get out my HO track and set it in my yard area for programming locos for the club, I feel that I could build an HO layout using the same dimensions, since I don't get the "cramped for space" feeling. -Mike
Easy way to figure out the heights they should be. Get two pieces of cardboard, the bigger the better. Sides from a refrigerator box are great. Suspend them by string from the ceiling at various heights until you find what is comfortable for you. Good idea to place a few buildings and a few freight cars on them to see how they look. Something I did during my planning phase. I ended up with 40" and 60" for my main decks. Plenty of photos under the "Overall" folder in link below. Larry http://s527.photobucket.com/albums/cc354/ClinchValley/
Thanks to all above. Some good advice from each... that's what I'm looking for. Wolfgang, that helix is AWESOME! I will definitely do a mock up. I am planning for the lower portion to be about 18" deep. The deck above will be from 24" to 30some" deep. I just doing some very quick measurements and hand checking today, I figure 12" (CLEAR) is what I want. That means w/ framing, subroadbed, roadbed, etc, it will need to be about 17" minimum. Maybe more depending on how I frame for lights. ClinchValley, I went to your photo album and found the below shot. This is EXACTLY the effect I am looking for. Good job and thank you for the inspiration! This sorta makes up my mind this will be the route I take.
Kitbash: I'll echo others' remarks about making a mock-up that is adjustable and can let you actually place structures, trains, and scenery on it to see how high or low decks need to be. There are LOTS of factors that will interact with each other: 1. As you mentioned, thickness of the upper deck will affect how deeply you can see into the back of the lower deck, but depth of the upper deck is important too. A 4 inch thick upper deck that is only 12 inches deep will not interfere with viewing the back of the lower deck as much as a 2 or 3 inch deck that is 24 inches deep. 2. Separation of the decks affects viewing, but the height of both decks interacts with the separation to affect viewing, also, even if thickness and depth of the upper deck remain the same: If you have a lower deck at 36 inches and upper at 48, you will not be able to see too deeply into the lower deck at all...but if you have a 12 inch separation when the lower deck is at 48 inches and the upper is at 60, the viewable area of the lower deck will extend much deeper. 3. Aisle width can affect depth of view into the lower deck. If you have a 2 foot wide aisle, you will only be able to back 15 to 20 inches from the front edge of the shelf you are looking at, so the angle of your eyes as you look onto the lower deck will be much steeper than if you can comfortably stand 3 feet back from the layout without having to bend over or tilt to the side to see trains or structures at the back of the lower level. 4. Shelf height affects the height at which structures or scenery will hide trains from view: The closer the shelf level is to your eye level, the shorter an obstruction needs to be to prevent you from seeing something behind it. Additionally, it will be important to play with how close the obstruction is in front of the train...if the shelf is higher, the hidden area behind will be wider (deeper). This means that a 3.5 inch tall building or tree-covered hill at the front of a 53 inch high shelf may hide cars on a hidden staging track that runs directly behind the building or trees, but won't hide the cars when the shelf is only 40 inches high. And it also means the track can be 2 or 3 inches away from the building or trees and still be hidden on a 53 inch high shelf, but the cars on a track 2 or 3 inches behind the building/trees may be visible on a 40 inch high shelf. 5. Lower shelf height affects the convenience of working under the layout on track or accessory wiring or switch machine installation or repairs . I can sit tailor fashion under a 48 inch high deck and work without contorting myself too much...but on a previous layout that had a 36 inch high lower deck, I could only work under it by lying on my back and reaching upwards. At 48 inches high, it is also possible to bend low while sitting on a wheeled dentist's stool and roll myself under the layout to pop up into one of the helixes or to get to the other side of benchwork. Shelf height also affects whether or not you can have workbenches or desks under your layout. 6. Separation between decks affects construction and maintenance. Allow room to hold an electric drill or a soldering gun perpendicular to the lower shelf without bumping into the upper deck. 7. Prefered viewing height (helicoptor/bird's eye view versus scale railfan height) affects desirable shelf level. On a previous layout (N-scale), I set my yard on a 36 inch high lower deck so I could look downward onto all 11 tracks in the yard. Even with that low of a lower deck, to get the helicoptor view which let me see reporting marks on all the cars, I had to set my upper deck at 58 inches and only 18 inches deep. For my current layout, I wanted to see more of the layout from scale railfan height (and wanted nod-unders instead of duck or crawl unders). 8. Sometimes access issues may affect deck height. My current layout has a very large yard on the 65 inch high upper deck. When passing through the yard, an operator can stay on the floor and choose scale railfan level, because they don't need hands-on access. Other operators may use the 12 inch high benches all along the yard to make the functional height of the yard 53 inches where locomotives will be pulling trains out of or into the yard (helicoptor view is not needed, but railfan height is too low to see cars or couplers on the back tracks). I like to use a 22 inch high step stool to stand on in the area where I classify cars and need to see reporting marks and reach couplers on cars on tracks toward the back of the shelf, so the functional height is only 43 inches.
Thank you Dave. That's quite a bit to chew on. But I really appreciate the thought and thoroughness of your response. That is extremely helpful. Kitbash
Kitbash In addition to Dave’s (ppuinn) excellent comments, get a copy of Tony Koester’s book “Designing & Building Multi-deck model Railroads”, 2008. Study it from cover to cover. Tony lists other items to consider: LIGHTING – What to consider for good lighting and operations. BOTTOM OF DECK – What to think about when adding bus lines, turnout motor controls, and structures from deck below (towers, signals, coaling stations, …) FUNCTION – What does the area do? If a point-to-point layout and one end of the bottom deck is a narrow staging yard, you might not need a lot of clearance. CLIMBING – What to consider for climbing between the decks; helix vs. mountain run. It’s a good read and worth the investment. Just my $0.02 Thom
Another very good suggestion there Allegheny! I just ordered this from Amazon. Currently, I am just starting working on my 'workshop'. Since I am doing this construction myself, I should be done this summer. Then this fall, I will start finishing out my trainroom. I'll have to post pictures of both rooms as I progress. This book should be a good reference to know frontwards and backwards by the time I start building the layout. I have already sketched out my rough track and bench plan. Exciting times starting a whole new layout. I have gotten some very good suggestions here. When I "demo'd" my layout in May of '08, I salvaged the entire portion of Albemarle City. The 3' deep by 10' portion to the right in this photo. My intention and plan is to set this up in my much larger room and expand in both directions. Layout should be about 5 times larger counting the double decked portion. I am stoked to get this started!!
