Hydrogen: the fuel of the future?

HemiAdda2d Nov 27, 2023

  1. HemiAdda2d

    HemiAdda2d Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Oklahoma Railroad Museum:
    It was in a terrible place for pictures...
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  2. r_i_straw

    r_i_straw Mostly N Scale Staff Member

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    After being stored in Galveston for a while, I saw it heading north to Temple, Texas in a hospital train back in May of 2022.
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  3. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Railroads have been experimenting with alternatives for decades now. Even though we keep hearing about 'new' and upcoming advances, none of them has as yet proven out. Costs. Reliability. Upkeep. Usefulness. All fails, so far.
     
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  4. Mike VE2TRV

    Mike VE2TRV TrainBoard Member

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    It's just like electric cars now. Costs? They're expensive (so much so that they need subsidies). Upkeep? Find a mechanic to fix that!

    Reliability doesn't seem to be much of a problem, except that it seems that battery-powered vehicles that use no combustion to get around actually catch fire more often than vehicles that use combustion for propulsion...:ROFLMAO:

    Hydrogen fuel cells are an interesting alternative and are actually a proven technology that goes way back. The Space Shuttles used them for power throughout their service lives. What will be expensive is building the infrastructure to support these engines.

    Expensive infrastructure is the same problem with converting everything to electric locos. Stringing catenary is a costly job and that's at least one reason why we don't have coast-to-coast overhead wire. Where there are some is in high-traffic corridors like the US northeast, where they make a viable alternative to short-haul air travel.
     
  5. MichaelClyde

    MichaelClyde TrainBoard Member

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    It says "hybrid" is it in fact powered by a fuel cell or simply a diesel with a hydrogen mix assist? I cannot imagine it given the size and power requirements.

    I have hydrogen electrolyzers powered by house solar and while not the most efficient process - yet - my goal is to gen hydrogen as storage rather than relying on expensive, conventional batteries. The trick is ensuring it's 99+% pure, separating out all the oxygen from the H2O prior to any high-pressure tanking. On the East Coast fuel cell cars are not popular due to practically no refueling infrastructure at all IMAGINE refueling in ones' own garage for FREE and . .

    . . and while parked in that garage overnight double-purposing the auto fuel cell to power the house inverter as well? I'm using "Outback Power Systems", one of the best transformer-based 'pure-sign wave' units available. There are many times when a solar system is idling, generating more electricity than used which means, if batt's are FULL on an off-grid system, the excess power is simply lost . .

    Being not very "efficient" either unlimited hydrogen storage (on my wish list) would solve THAT problem too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2023
  6. HemiAdda2d

    HemiAdda2d Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    CP has also experimented with it. Their H2 units passed thru Minot, ND on Independence Day:
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  7. acptulsa

    acptulsa TrainBoard Member

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    You, sir, understand the physics and the limits of the tech.

    We harvest hydrogen by splitting water with electricity. So, the electricity we put into this chemical reaction we get back when we burn this fuel. And however we burn the fuel, in an engine, fuel cell or what have you, all seem to be lighter than batteries.

    The hydrogen, meanwhile, is lighter than air.

    It's a lighter, often cheaper alternative to batteries for using electricity to power something mobile or otherwise off-grid. And while pollutants may be produced to make the electricity, when and where the hydrogen is burned there's nothing produced but some possibility of oxides of nitrogen, and steam. The exhaust is indeed hot water. A hydrogen fueled ICE is an internal combustion steam engine.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2023
  8. r_i_straw

    r_i_straw Mostly N Scale Staff Member

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    One issue at this time is that most hydrogen fuel that is produced comes from fossil fuels. Electrolysis requires a lot of energy using today's technology. Until it can be produced economically from other processes, it will not replace fossil fuels in most applications. The hunt is on to find a good way to make "green" hydrogen.
     
  9. MichaelClyde

    MichaelClyde TrainBoard Member

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    A kindred hydrogen experimenter?
    Last time I checked there are no commercially available systems to allow home-based DIY, a wide-open market opportunity for an enterprising entrepreneur! I installed the solar system myself and, in the eight years since, prices for even more powerful panels has done nothing but come down down down. Ah, but then again, great fear is there's always guberment regulation with all its self-seeking, lobbyist resistence! While still considered "experimental" WHY do we always rely on "somebody else" to come up with "solutions" when the tech is already here?

    The prior linked youtuber is on the right track and has a sales website as well so, with his unusually designed electrolyzers still being very expensive, the idea must be -> buy just one and then build the rest myself?

    "PEM hydrogen generators generate Pure 99.99% hydrogen and oxygen through the
    electrolysis of pure distilled water without the use of caustic electrolyte.
    5 volt power supply needed for this cell
    "​

    (ps: my solar system has eight six-volt deep cycle batts connected in series for a system total of 48volts dc so, tapping each batt individually, I wouldn't think 6+volts could hurt?)
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2023
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  10. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    So I wonder how much hydrogen would be required to equal the service range and power development capabilities of a present day diesel? I also wonder about safety. What would happen if there was a derailment, and the fuel storage aboard somehow ruptured? Hydrogen is very flammable and has explosive potential.
     
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  11. MichaelClyde

    MichaelClyde TrainBoard Member

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    LOL if "electric vehicles" are any comparison a fuel-cell locomotive would 'ave to tap the hydrogen core of the sun itself! Cryogenic liquid hydrogen? Akin to what some space rockets use? (not to mention the size/cost of the platinum fuel-cell elements) As far as safety is concerned hydrogen is considered safer than gasoline because, being lighter than air, if a sudden leak does occur it tends to dissipate very quickly (as opposed to spilling "everywhere").

    Hydrogen by itself, unlike gasoline "fumes", is not combustible it needs the catalyst oxygen + a spark and, in the event of a worst-case unlikely explosion, you'd wind up not with FIRE but rather cool to-the-touch WATER.

    (Why is everything they make labeled "Made in China"?)​
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2023
  12. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    During the early days of hydrogen-fueled rockets, it was found that free hydrogen might form a sphere and burn only on the surface. It might not rise but stay near the source of the leak. Furthermore, hydrogen flame is invisible. When a hydrogen leak and fire was suspected, you had to walk holding a straw broom by the handle with the straw ahead of you. If the straw burst into flame, you turned around...quickly.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2023
  13. MichaelClyde

    MichaelClyde TrainBoard Member

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    LOL "pop plunk . . BOOM! Hey kids try this yourselves" (a quote at end) Correction: He's "bleeding" oxygen from the tube!


    For fun I pressurize ballons with "browns gas", a mix of 2 parts H and 1 part O, and then cover my ears because while not a harmful explosion (can hold in hand) The Sound is akin to a large cannon going off!
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2023
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  14. Mike VE2TRV

    Mike VE2TRV TrainBoard Member

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    You must be quite popular with the neighbors...:eek:

    There must be some Addams Family in your DNA. Probably Uncle Fester's... :ROFLMAO:
     
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  15. Kurt Moose

    Kurt Moose TrainBoard Member

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    Is nobody gonna' mention that sweet Milwaukee Road SW in the pic?!:eek:

    That's a real beaut!! When did that get restored, I never heard about it?o_O
     
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  16. HemiAdda2d

    HemiAdda2d Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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  17. Mike VE2TRV

    Mike VE2TRV TrainBoard Member

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  18. Kurt Moose

    Kurt Moose TrainBoard Member

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    She's gorgeous!

    My oh my!!:love:
     
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  19. MichaelClyde

    MichaelClyde TrainBoard Member

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  20. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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